Discussion On The Female Diksha Guru Issue: Amongst Godbrothers-4

Dear Godbrother Prabhu,

Namonamaha.  Jaya Srila Prabhupada!

Received your message:

Godbrother: These days it is rare that young people in North America join ISKCON.The first Navadwip Parikrama that I attended in 1975 was nearly all Americans, with a smattering of Europeans and Australians. A couple of years ago, out of 9000 participants, only three were American.

Basu Ghosh Das: Prabhu, the above may be true, but irrelevant to the topic you raised with me.

[Note: the topic of female Diksha Gurus exclusively for North America]

Godbrother: Thank you, Basu Ghosh Prabhu, for your response. If you and I can find common ground, surely Srila Prabhupada will be pleased.

Basu Ghosh Das: That’s a very unlikely outcome of this dialogue, but I’m “keeping on”, hoping against hope that something might break the logjam!

Godbrother: You have acknowledged the importance of making American devotees. As such, my question is you are asking the GBC to rescind a policy that allows preachers in India to observe practices different than preachers in North America. Our challenge in North America is to convince large numbers of non-Indian people to add Krishna to their lives. Preachers in India have different challenges. Why should one size fit all, especially since Srila Prabhupada specifically writes in the CC that preaching different approaches for India and America are needed?

Basu Ghosh Das: “Preaching” cannot be equated to “diksha guruship”. You want me to acquiesce here: to accept your point that female gurus are “required” for preaching in North America? 

If female diksha gurus are required, then how come Srila Prabhupada preached without making even one single female a TP, “sannyasini”, BBT trustee, or GBC member?

Perhaps the real problem is that Srila Prabhupada was so much more spiritually advanced than we are, and because of that, he was able to inspire people where we are not?

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his essay on Vaishnava aparadha defines the topmost Vaishnava as one who inspires people to chant just by being in his presence:

yanhara darsane mukhe aise krsna-nama

tanhare janiha tumi ‘vaisnava-pradhana’

krama kari’ kahe prabhu ‘vaisnava’-laksana-

‘vaisnava’, ‘vaisnavatara’, ara ‘vaisnavatama’

“One who inspires others to chant krishna-nam merely by being visible to them is vaishnava-tama (possessed of vaishnava qualities to the superlative degree) and is the topmost Vaishnava.” Chaitanya Charitamrita Madhya 16.74 – 75

So, therefore the problem is not that there is some material arrangement that you need to implement, but the problem is that we are not spiritually advanced. You become a Vaishnava-tama (topmost vaishnava), then you will start to see devotees joining in droves!

This cannot be imitated on the material platform. And FDG by your admission is a material arrangement, not a spiritual one.

Godbrother: I understand that you do most of your preaching in India, though you have remained active in America as well. When was the last time you recruited a non-Indian American youth to Krishna consciousness?  

You did not answer this question. May I take that to mean you have not done so for many years?

Basu Ghosh Das: Yes, I have not. Correct.

Godbrother: If so, please know that you are not alone. Many of our fellow preachers have found recruiting Westerners very difficult. In recent years, though, I and others, after carefully studying Srila Prabhupada’s approach, have been able to again regularly recruit young Americans to ISKCON–some 300 in the last 12 years. These young men and women have become top book distributors, temple presidents, and, in general, enthusiastic ISKCON devotees. Our success is not through Krishna West, which as you note has not made much impact. What has worked for us is doing exactly what Srila Prabhupada did when he started ISKCON in America.

Basu Ghosh Das: Well, good for you. Note that you found success in preaching WITHOUT female diksha gurus!

So the logical deduction is that they aren’t required to obtain success in preaching to non-Hindus.

Also, the use of the word “Westerners” could be interpreted to mean a number of ethnic groups, does it not?  You see, not all Westerners are of European, Christian stock, even if they are the majority in North America.  There are other major minorities in North American, such as African Americans, Hispanics, Asians other than Indian Hindus, etc. The problem is, as mentioned above, a lack of spiritual advancement. There is no material “trick” to discover or implement

Godbrother: Srila Prabhupada preached that we are not these bodies and that anyone, regardless of their birth, could practice pure Krishna consciousness and teach it to others. This message still resonates. However, these days, as in Srila Prabhupada’s time, when Western seekers, male and female, encounter different organizational standards for men and women, they are turned off. They laugh and say, “You’re not this body–unless you’re a woman.”

Basu Ghosh Das: But then if this is actually the case, why should women have to have some sort of institutional support when they become guru?  Why is the GBC requiring that?  Do you agree with that provision?  If so, is that not also an institutional double-standard?

“We are not these bodies” refers to the eternal soul that inhabits the individual bodies, human, as well as animal, aquatic, avian, insect, reptile, plant, etc.  I hope you agree?

So, then do you also agree that no special provision for women should be made as gurus, or in any status once they become ISKCON devotees? If you aren’t the body, then should they not be able to act on that platform?

Here is the point about “we are not these bodies”: even the demons can understand this. Mayavadis will agree with you.

Godbrother: Yet he treated his female disciples evenhandedly. He opened brahamacarini ashrams in all his Western temples.

Basu Ghosh Das: But he meant for that to be a temporary measure, not permanent. In the course of time, if we are progressing as a society, those should eventually close. He indicated this in an Aug 8, 1968 letter to Satsvarupa:

“That the Brahmacarini ashram is a good success is a very good news. But the best thing will be if the grown-up Brahmacarinis get married. According to Vedic culture, a woman is never to remain independent. I shall be glad if the Brahmacarinis can have nice husbands, and live as Grhasthas. But if they cannot find out good husbands, it is better to remain a Brahmacarini all the life, even though it is a little difficult.”

At least we should agree that this adjustment was meant to be temporary. Don’t you agree?

Godbrother: He engaged his female disciples in non-traditional roles such as selling books and raising money. In a CC purport, he wrote that his female disciples are “as good as their brothers.”

Basu Ghosh Das: And how good are their brothers?  What is the record?  Not so good, and we have been and continue to be criticized for our looseness with the regulative principles.  Therefore, we need to be better followers of sanatana-dharma.  Srila Prabhupada explains varnashrama as the way bhakti is organized within society at large.  He says (in the purport Srimad Bhagavatam 7.11.2):

“Sanatana-dharma means devotional service. . . . Even though one’s body or one’s superficial religion may change, every living entity is always engaged in the service of someone. Therefore, the mentality of service is called eternal occupational duty. This eternal occupational duty can be organized through the institution of varnashrama, in which there are four varnas (brahmana, kshatriya, vaishya and shudra) and four ashramas (brahmacarya, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa). Thus, Yudhisthira Maharaja inquired from Narada Muni about the principles of sanatana-dharma for the benefit of human society.”

Therefore, in our less-than-liberated state, our service is restrained by varnashrama principles.

Godbrother: He threw off criticism for all this by writing that his critics could do nothing to spread Krishna consciousness all over the world. Srila Prabhupada preached that we are not these bodies and that anyone, regardless of their birth, could practice pure Krishna consciousness and teach it to others. This message still resonates. However, these days, as in Srila Prabhupada’s time, when Western seekers, male and female, encounter different organizational standards for men and women, they are turned off. They laugh and say, “You’re not this body–unless you’re a woman.”

Basu Ghosh Das: “We are not these bodies” refers to the eternal soul that inhabits the individual bodies, human, as well as animal, aquatic, avian, insect, reptile, plant, etc.  I hope you agree?

The fact is that we obtain a good or bad, higher (demigod, brahmana, etc.), lower (shudra, female/woman, plant, etc.) due to our past karmas, known as prarabdha karmas.  As in Gita 13.22 .  Note the words, “sad asad yoni” – good and bad birth.  This is NOT egalitarian.

So here is where we disagree.  You want karma to be egalitarian, but it is not.  You want Lord Krishna to be egalitarian, but He is not!  Yes, “we are not these bodies”, but we are IN these bodies, and according to our past karmas we get a good or bad birth, as in Gita 6.41.  Getting a good or bad body is NOT egalitarian.  Also in Gita 16.20: 

Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, O son of Kunti, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence.

So, “we are not this body”, but we somehow at present have the advantage of a human body, not a plant, animal, avian, aquatic, etc., a body where consciousness exists, but in a very dull form.

Isn’t THIS what we “believe”?

Godbrother:  Srila Prabhupada criticized women’s liberation, as do we. Yet he treated his female disciples evenhandedly. He opened brahamacarini ashrams in all his Western temples. He engaged his female disciples in non-traditional roles such as selling books and raising money. In a CC purport he wrote that his female disciples are “as good as their brothers.” He threw off criticism for all this by writing that his critics could do nothing to spread Krishna consciousness all over the world.

Basu Ghosh Das: And the fact is that he did NOT appoint even one woman as a TP, GBC, or BBT trustee! You see, Prabhupada understood that women in the West had become highly influenced by the equal rights movements of the 19th and 20th century.  Therefore, he was somewhat accommodating by being a bit lenient.  We all agree that women can be engaged in distributing books, and temple services.  In India, Prabhupada had us follow the vedic traditions, but yes, he was just a bit more liberal in the West.  Still, he taught that the ideal life was the life of vedic culture as found in India.  He commented that “the Indian village system is the ideal system of life”.

It was at Vrindavan just after the Gaur Purnima festival of 1974 – I was there – when Srila Prabhupada divided the 400 foreign devotees in half, into two groups, and it was he who sent 200 of those devotees back to Mayapur to “learn varnashrama”!   This is a historical fact… forgotten by some, but not all.  Where you there at that time?  Many devotees who were present at what has become an annual festival (yes, that was one of the earliest), can vouch for this.

Godbrother: Today, armchair observers may agree or disagree. But we who preach to Westerners every day know that what Srila Prabhupada did in America still works, and imposing Vedic social constructs does not. Outside studies affirm that today’s Western youth largely judge religious organizations by how they treat women.

Basu Ghosh Das: Here is what the late Dr. Stillson Judah, author of the book, “Hare Krishna and the Counterculture” wrote about “what Prabhupada did in America”:

“The position of women in society may not appeal to Americans interested in women’s liberation … Females may not become presidents of any temple, nor occupy positions of authority. They may do the cooking, help with the devotional services and maintenance of the temple, and prepare flower offerings for Krishna.” (Judah, 1974:86) 

Sorry, Prabhu, but I reject the faulty logic that we must accommodate FDGs as a sign of “good treatment” of women.

Authorizing FDGs contradicts what Prabhupada taught.  It contradicts what is taught in Narada Pancharatra.  It contradicts Prabhupada’s expressed desire to establish a varnashram society, wherein the brahmanas are the diksha gurus (and mostly the shiksha gurus as well), and that the women assist their husbands by managing the household affairs.

Doesn’t “preaching” means to propagate what Srila Prabhupada and vedic shastras teach?

On one hand, you want to preach, and on the other hand what you are telling myself, and the leaders of the ISKCON temples in India, is that you need to reject what Prabhupada – and vedic shastras teach – in order to be successful preaching in the West!

My view – our view – the view of the leaders of ISKCON India, is that it is illogical that we should discard what is inside the books – the teachings found in them – that we are distributing, and change the opinions on women that Prabhupada expressed therein, as well as in his letters, lectures, and conversations.

Godbrother: As for ISKCON women giving diksa, we love Srila Prabhupada’s answer, “Some but not many.” ‘Not many’ is not equal to ‘none’. If there are a few, that will suffice to show Western youth that we practice what we preach. And our young American devotee prospects have no problem at all if things are done differently in ISKCON India.

Basu Ghosh Das: You achieved success in your center in recruiting new devotees WITHOUT the presence of female diksha gurus!   From this at least I understand that female diksha gurus are thus unnecessary to recruit “young American devotee prospects”!

Sorry, but I will continue – and will not rest – until this gross misconception is defeated. The faulty theory that without women diksha gurus, the preaching in the West will not expand.

Since the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada, ISKCON has grown “leaps and bounds” in so many places, not just in India – without FDGs!

You continue – in this chain of letters – to ignore what the Indian Bureau resolved specifically in response to this argument, that things are different between ISKCON’s preaching efforts in the USA and India:

“Whereas, the members of the Bureau feel that the GBC resolution authorizing female diksha gurus even on a regional basis will adversely affect ISKCON India.  As devotees around the world treat ISKCON as one united institution and not compartmentally, with each area having its own systems of initiation. So anyone who is initiated by a female guru outside of India cannot be denied as a bona fide initiated devotee within India.  We wish to point out that ISKCON India has the most temples, the largest group of both fully dedicated and congregational devotees, and the most book distribution in the world.  Moreover, we wish to point out that the vast majority of ISKCON’s congregation in the USA, Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand, as well as to some extent in Western Europe, are Indians, and they naturally have a relationship with ISKCON in India,”

You have ignored this because it seems, you have no answer to it!

Godbrother: Our application of Srila Prabhupada’s approach continues to work well. Today, our ashrams are stuffed full of blissful young devotees. These bright and capable young devotees who sometimes struggle to put faith in ISKCON are overjoyed by the GBC resolution that you ask to rescind.

Basu Ghosh Das: Maybe you do indeed have an “ashram stuffed full of blissful young devotees” over where you are – in your one center/temple?

But in the rest of the temples in the USA, the ashrams are empty: I have been to a number of temples here, and seen it for myself over these past three years, during regular visits here.

It just isn’t honest to write as if the majority of ISKCON temples in the USA are “stuffed full with blissful young devotees” when the talk is that “there are more Deities than devotees” in most of the temples here!

Godbrother: So again, my specific question: In your opinion, what is wrong with different standards in different places?

Basu Ghosh Das: Different standards means double-standard! Maintaining double standards will be detrimental to ISKCON, because it is hypocrisy!

Godbrother: I’m also curious to know: personally, I am greatly appreciative of the amazing things you and our Godbrothers have done preaching in India. Is there is anything about our successful recruiting program in America that you feel is wrong or unfaithful to Srila Prabhupada?

Basu Ghosh Das: If you have a successful recruiting program in your temple, great!  But please don’t think that I – or other leaders of ISKCON India – aren’t aware of the ground realities over here. Prabhu, you are only fooling yourself if you really think that “all the ashrams are stuffed full” in the ISKCON temples in the USA.  It is simply not the truth!

Hope this meets you well.

——————

Addenda: Daivi Varna and Ashrama – Srila Prabhupada’s pertinent instructions on varnashrama dharma.

From Srila Prabhupada’s room conversation in Mayapur, February 14, 1977

Prabhupada: Revolution means they are dissatisfied.

Satsvarupa: French Revolution, Russian Revolution.

Prabhupada: These things were not going nicely. Therefore gradually it broke. But if things are going nicely, people will be happy. They will not revolt. You have to keep the citizens satisfied in all respects. You must know the necessity of how people are satisfied. You have to arrange the government in that way. Then there will be no revolution. Mass of people, if they are satisfied, they will not revolt.

Satsvarupa: When Ramananda Raya brought Varnasrama up, Lord Caitanya said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

Prabhupada: He did not say not possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

Satsvarupa: But don’t we do that also?

Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krsna consciousness in everything. Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the world. That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane.

Hari-Sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s practical preaching He only induced them to chant.

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.

Prabhupada: Yes. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitaù. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and…

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas. There must be regular education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain sections as brahmana, certain section as ksatriya, certain section as vaisya. In that education, we don’t discriminate because he’s coming from a sudra family. Take education. Be qualified.

Hari-Sauri: But in our community, as it is, we are training up as Vaisnavas…

Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.

Hari-Sauri: No, it’s not a cheap thing.

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down? It is not easy.

Hari-Sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial. Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

Hari-Sauri: But then if everybody’s being raised to the brahminical platform…

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody should become brahmana.

Hari-Sauri: No, but in our society, practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is…

Prabhupada: Everybody is being raised, but they’re falling down.

Hari-Sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a ksatriya. You’ll be happy.

Hari-Sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then…

Prabhupada: No, no.

Hari-Sauri: Unless one is particularly inclined.

Prabhupada: Not that a Sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam… He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment, the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

Hari-Sauri: For Krsna.

Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he’ll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like the head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is a leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.

Satsvarupa: Today you’ve been saying that the Vaisnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we’ve also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaisnava.

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava everyone, even if he’s not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that “I am a servant of Krsna.” Here the bodily conception is going on, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am this,” “I am that.”

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, “Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra…”

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don’t want to. I want everyone to become Vaisnava. But because he’s a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore the system must be present. But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaisnava.

Hari-Sauri: So we’d have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.

Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they’re falling down. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krsna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhirataù?

Hari-Sauri: sve sve karmany ab hirataù saàsiddhià labhate naraù sva-karma-nirataù siddhià yatha vindati tac chrnu By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done.”

Prabhupada: Yes. He is sudra, clerk. As a sudra, he can get perfection. Why he should artificially become a brahmana and sannyasi and fall down? This has to be checked.

Hari-Sauri: So in Mayapura here now we have that situation, that so many…

Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhirataù. Brahmana has his duty, ksatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to sastra, the work of sudra, or vaisya. He’ll become perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a sannyasi and fall down and become ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That’s good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Lord Visnu can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulations of four varnas and four asramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmani. You work as a perfect brahmana or a perfect ksatriya, perfect sudra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous?

Hari-Sauri: At this time should we try to introduce it in our centers or not?

Prabhupada: Always we shall try. Human society will be always there. We have to serve them, para-upakara. We have to keep them in the right position.

Hari-Sauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing… A pamphlet came out about introducing the varnasrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.

Prabhupada: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something. Every business is important. Brahmana business is important, ksatriya… Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, “Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain.” No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varnasrama.

Hari-Sauri: So at least if we successfully introduce the varnasrama system in our own society, then when all the demons finish themselves…

Prabhupada: At least… At least… At least they will see, “This is the ideal.” Ideal. We are giving the ideal. We are not going to be a sudra. But to show … Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the part of a king. You are not a king.

Hari-Sauri: No.

Prabhupada: So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to play like that.

Hari-Sauri: Well, again, that’s…

Prabhupada: Not necessarily that we are going to be sudra. So that is it. That is the thing. We are servant of Krsna. That’s all. And as servant of Krsna, we have to execute the order of Krsna.

Satsvarupa: So we can ideally organize ourselves and then for the rest of the people all we can do is hope that they’ll follow it.

Prabhupada: Yes. In order to serve the mass of people, to bring them to the ideal position, we should try to introduce this varnasrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varnasrama. It is not our business. But to teach them how the world will be in the peaceful position we have to introduce.