Video Transcription (Autogenerated)
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Hare Krishna. Uh, welcome to this uh episode of our IISB video. Uh, this is Sridhar Srinivasa Das. I’m a member of IISB, ISKCON India Scholars Board, and I’m going to be uh speaking about an important presentation. I’m going to promote uh a presentation made by His Holiness Sivarama Swami Maharaja who is a former GBC and a very senior Prabhupada disciple and an exemplary personality who has implemented uh a varnashrama community in the West, which is a very commendable uh service to Srila Prabhupada.
Now Maharaj has made uh two presentations. 5 years back he did part one of the female diksha-guru—whether female diksha-gurus should be there or not. And uh in part two, which was released two-three days back, he has again spoken on this topic. So I’m going to quickly walk through some portions of this part one and part two so that you know how important it is for all the devotees of ISKCON to watch that and absorb it, and there’s a great message in it.
So quickly to summarize, in part one Maharaj had three parts. In the first part, he was saying how letters… there’s so many instructions of Prabhupada; out of that, which one to pick and which one is most important. So Maharaj is speaking about Prabhupada’s statements and in that he… in the… you know, he says the books are the basis, and we’ll go to that particular part where Maharaj says uh that what Maharaj has to say.
“I’ll go on to the final part of the argument and that’s the third part, the third part of my presentation, which for me is the conclusive evidence, is that evidence of the book Bhagavata and the person Bhagavata nityam. In part one, I showed the weakness and contradiction in the evidence itself on which the diksha-guru resolution is based. And in part two, it was seen that Srila Prabhupada himself discounted the evidence making it at least questionable. Now this third part shows that the Bhagavatam commentary, Srila Prabhupada’s own words, says that women cannot be initiators. Moreover, Prabhupada’s personal conduct establishes what he wanted, and that was no Vaishnavi gurus. He didn’t establish any. So the overriding emphasis and the overriding weight of the evidence is on the book Bhagavata and the person Bhagavata.”
And let’s start with what Prabhupada said in his books. Now in commenting on Dhruva’s concern for his mother’s liberation, Srila Prabhupada writes in the Fourth Canto, and you can read this quote:
“Dhruva had a feeling of obligation to his mother Suniti. It was Suniti who had given him the clue which had now enabled him to be personally carried to the Vaikuntha planet by the associates of Lord Vishnu. He now remembered her and wanted to take her with him. Actually, Dhruva Maharaja’s mother Suniti was his vartma-pradarsaka-guru. Vartma-pradarsaka-guru means the guru or the spiritual master who shows the way. Such a guru is sometimes called the shiksha-guru. Although Narada Muni was his diksha-guru (initiating spiritual master), Suniti, his mother, was the first who gave him instruction on how to achieve the favor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is the duty of the shiksha-guru or diksha-guru to instruct the disciple in the right way, and it depends on the disciple to execute the process. According to shastra injunction, there is no difference between shiksha-guru and diksha-guru, and generally the shiksha-guru later on becomes the diksha-guru. However, being a woman, and specifically his mother, could not become Dhruva Maharaja’s diksha-guru. Still, he was not less obliged to Suniti. There was no question of carrying Narada Muni to Vaikuntha-loka, but Dhruva Maharaja thought of his mother.”
This is the purport in the Fourth Canto. Uh, you may want to take note that this was uh written years after Srila Prabhupada wrote uh that uh letter or those two letters in 1969. In this purport, Prabhupada makes clear a woman can become vartma-pradarsaka-guru, she can become a shiksha-guru, but she cannot become a diksha-guru.
Okay. So let’s see, Maharaj emphasized that there are two aspects: book Bhagavata and person Bhagavata. So he established what Prabhupada said in his book—a direct statement from Bhagavatam—and he even said all other statements that he made, Prabhupada would have made on this topic, is all subservient to this because it’s a book Bhagavata. This is a very important point. Even in this own part itself, Maharaj is saying what Prabhupada as a person Bhagavata did, and we will go to that part now.
“One: Prabhupada’s conduct is the answer. And what was Prabhupada’s conduct as far as leadership? Because women should always be protected. They should not be in an independent leadership position. So Prabhupada didn’t want women in service of leaders. And now honing in on disciples becoming gurus. What did Prabhupada say or do in that regard? In 1977, Srila Prabhupada repeatedly spoke to men about the topic of guru but not once did he speak to women. For example, uh this was in Mumbai in uh April, 22nd of April. Srila Prabhupada is saying—this is actually a quote uh from Servant of the Servant—that night Srila Prabhupada asked Akshayananda Maharaja, ‘Are you ready to initiate disciples? I want to retire now.’ Akshayananda replied that with Prabhupada’s order came the ability to carry it out, therefore he was ready. And when it came to selecting diksha-gurus, Prabhupada selected men; he did not select Vaishnavis as a guru. Now why not? A point aside but important: Srila Prabhupada was aware that at that time women were not treated in the nicest possible way in ISKCON. If he wanted to make a point about women’s equality, here was a golden opportunity. But Srila Prabhupada didn’t do so. Why not? Again, there were women who were faithful, intelligent, and Krishna conscious, more so than some men. But still, he did not do it. So in light of dharma-sthapana, his conduct says something.”
Currently ISKCON devotees argue, quoting different pros and cons regarding Vaishnavis becoming diksha-gurus in our movement. I ask, who is to say what is the conclusion of this argument? Is it the GBC? They are certainly the ultimate authority in the movement, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that their decision is correct, and they are divided: devotees with this opinion and devotees with that opinion. Uh, as Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja once said, siddhanta is not established by votes. So who is to say what is the conclusion on the Vaishnavi diksha-guru controversy?
Okay, I know I don’t want to play the entire video here because I would like each one of you to go through both the parts. Take the time out, it’s worth it, and see them for yourself. Now I’m going to quickly uh summarize. Sivarama Swami Maharaja said one thing: that book Bhagavata and person Bhagavata have to be considered. But what if this book Bhagavata contradicts with person Bhagavata? But there is an answer from Srimad-Bhagavatam, 10th Canto, [Chapter] 33, 31st verse:
“The statements of the Lord’s empowered servants are always true and the acts they perform are exemplary when consistent with those statements. Therefore, one who is intelligent should carry out their instructions.”
So here you can see the statements—book Bhagavata—must be in conjunction and consistent with the actions—which is person Bhagavata—and… and somebody… we are… we have to see that in this particular issue of female diksha-guru the both of them are matching. Prabhupada’s book statements, Bhagavatam purport, matches with his actions, as Maharaj has nicely pointed out.
That’s one point I want to make. Before we close, I want to make another point that Prabhupada… Maharaj said Prabhupada’s statements and actions are important. If that is the key, then what did Prabhupada actually say about what to do when in times of controversy? If there are conflicting statements? If we ever were to come across a situation where we see conflicting statement and action, or conflicting statements? Prabhupada said here, [Canto 1, Chapter] 20, [Text] 352 [referring to Chaitanya Charitamrita Adi 7.53 or similar context regarding sadhu-shastra-guru]:
“According to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, this is the way an incarnation should be accepted. Sri Narottama Dasa Thakura says, sadhu-shastra-guru vakya. One should accept a thing as genuine by studying the words of saintly person, the spiritual master, and the shastra. The actual center is the shastra, the revealed scripture. If a spiritual master does not speak according to the revealed scripture, he is not to be accepted. Similarly, if a saintly person does not speak according to the shastra, he is not a saintly person. The shastra is the center for all.”
And this… I will not continue with this reading, but you can go through this purport. But that’s the point, that shastra must be the center. Oh, I… I didn’t show you this purport, but this is what I was saying, that shastra… Prabhupada clearly says if guru or a spiritual master or a uh saintly person does not speak according to shastra, then you know, we should ensure that shastra is the center. So this is another way we can see that on all controversial topics we can see what Prabhupada has said: keep shastra in the center.
So now on the female diksha-guru topic, what does the shastra say? Well, I want all of you to go through this PDF. It’s available in the archive.org: Sri Narada Pancharatra. Actually this book is… Vaishnava Diksha according to Narada Pancharatra. So you can actually see this book uh is available in uh electronic format. And uh I also would like you to go through a website which is Seeing from the Eye of Shastra: Shastra Chakshusha. This is a blog where we… I personally maintain so many… and my book, I have written a book Female Diksha Guru: Do We Need Them? and that is also based on shastra and it brings out the shastra pramana [evidence], and all the presentations are present here. And one thing I would like to show before we conclude… again IISB website also has more presentation that we gave for female diksha-guru and uh you [are] free to go through all of those. And one more thing, all these links will be put up in the description column.
And one last thing before I conclude is [I] want to show you the shastra pramana. And this is the Narada Pancharatra, Bharadvaja-samhita, which is uh a Pancharatrika scripture. ISKCON follows Pancharatrika system of initiation, and that is this:
“Even then, a woman, a shudra and an antyaja can never act as an initiating guru. Nor can anyone who is accused of great sin or is [swollen?] and aspiring disciple who is actually accomplished in detachment. Akama [one free from material desire] should never accept a guru who is infected with material desires. Women, shudras, etc., can give ethical and moral instructions and are also worthy of respect as per their qualifications and conditions but are not entitled to get the position of acharya.”
The third verse is:
“But because perfect yogis who are on the stage of yoga-siddha [perfected in yoga] or self-realized pratyagatmanah may take birth in any family tradition; in such cases, no consideration of kula [family], gender, etc., as mentioned earlier apply. So they can become acharyas.”
In general case, women cannot become acharyas. In only exceptional stage that Maharaj describes in those videos—the Jahnava Mata or very, very exalted pratyagatmanah who can see the Lord face to face—can become acharyas even though if they are women or shudras.
Now these same verses are quoted elsewhere by Baladeva Vidyabhushana. So that I give in my book uh evidence you can go through that. Actually there is a section here, Bharadvaja-samhita significance… I’m just scrolling through that for you… and Narada Pancharatra. How our acharyas, Gaudiya Acharyas, have spoken about and made reference. Especially the Gaudiya Acharya Baladeva Vidyabhushana has given a commentary in his Srimad-Bhagavatam commentary and he has mentioned the very same verse that yes, this is that verse. For lack of time I don’t want to go through this but in this verse, this is what he says that… and he quotes the name Bharadvaja-samhita: na jatu mantra narinam [a woman should never give mantra].
And he says, how Vidura, even though he was a shudra or he was… although being a shudra and being a junior to Dhritarashtra, how could Vidura impart spiritual instructions to Dhritarashtra? Since Vidura was Dharmaraja himself, he was empowered to see the Lord face to face. And as stated in Bharadvaja-samhita 1.42-44…
So this is what I want to conclude. Please take your time. Now GBC is really going to make a big decision and we have to give… as Prabhupada wanted all of us to be based on shastra. So we each one of us have responsibility and we should consider all these points before once a decision is made. This is going to be very hard to change it, but we should not make any such decisions based on votes. That’s what Sivarama Swami Maharaja also said, and he quoted Gour Govinda Maharaja. So all the saintly persons are saying majority of votes doesn’t count in philosophical matters. It has to be shastra.
So thank you for your time.