Contentious Sankirtana or Compassionate Patience? Part-4

4. A Non-Dual Dialogue from the Trenches

Chuck Hillig’s Opening Muse:

Religion is a solution that’s used to solve a non-existent problem.

Chuck Hillig Facebook post May 26, 2020

Chuck Borough

A good religion helps us solve many existent problems. None of our five children, for example, ever smoked or drank – that was a big advantage for them. They’re also caring and responsible – much help from the religion they grew up with. Some of them come to realize that it’s superstition, but still appreciate the organization and social advantages.

1) Mayesvara:
Chuck Borough is on the right track. Here is a more realistic opinion from a non-speculative source that has endured thousands of years and has been accepted by “Learned Men”

“The real problem of life is the repetition of birth and death, which is like a wheel rolling repeatedly up and down. This wheel, however, completely stops when one is in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In other words, by the transcendental bliss realized from constant engagement in devotional service, one is completely liberated from material existence. All learned men know this. Therefore, my dear friends, O sons of the asuras, immediately begin meditating upon and worshiping the Supersoul within everyone’s heart. ” – SB 7.7.37

David N. Zuckerman

Your have pointed out a solution to a non-existent problem. Congrats. Thanks for leading by example and re enforcing what Chuck H. is referring to in the post.

2) MayesvaraDasa

It is NOT MY solution. It comes from one of the most respected Vedic sources.
You obviously prefer Chucks mundane speculation from the wisdom handed down from the sages that have historically been accepted by “Learned Men” for thousands of years. Everyone can believe whatever nonsense that appeals to their false ego and restless senses… but nobody is going to care about those opinions even 100 years after they are gone. Ignoring the problems of this life is irresponsible and a misuse of human intelligence… but you certainly have the right to do that.

David N. Zuckerman

MayesvaraDasa Is it possible that this respected second hand source might be wrong ?

David N. Zuckerman

Reality is find of facts, not opinions or beliefs. Agree with you on that for sure , the vedic sources are opinions , that require you believe them. Which it seems you do , they might be right. Maybe there wrong …

We do not really know…. And that is the real point of what Chuck is saying. All religions and Gods trying to answer and explain the inexplicable. Which is this moment right now……No one knows.

3) Mayesvara Dasa

Truth is being honest enough to realize that every human is encumbered with four human flaws thus making each of us completely incapable of ever figuring out anything for certain on our own. This is why there is so much endless speculation and pithy maxims that get tossed around about dreams, religion, illusion, purpose, beliefs, etc.

When one actually understands this point the three remaining alternatives are either:: 1)we consent to remain in eternal speculative ignorance, Or: 2) One must get knowledge from an alternative source that lies beyond the limits of our feeble mind and intelligence. 3) The third option is to dis-miss everything as illusionary which is a way of removing oneself from a rigorous inquiry about the nature of truth. This is very clever because it is a philosophical cop out and an impenetrable form of perpetual ignorance as so clearly observed by the sociologist: Herbert Spencer

“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That is contempt prior to investigation.”-

Religions offer a variety of alternative sources to perpetual ignorance and offers remedies to the problems of Birth Death, Disease and Old Age. (Who is so audacious to not admit that these things are unpleasant?) Individuals with various levels of inquiry, intelligence, education, and culture etc. accept religion for answers they are honest enough to admit they can’t possibly figure out. For myself, the Vedic traditions provides the most comprehensive understanding of what is true and yes, it requires some faith. That faith comes when one studies them and appreciates the knowledge that is given there which requires giving up the contempt prior to investigation.

This requires some humility. Those who continue to believe they can figure it all out on their own are either too proud, dishonest, or unobservant to start the process of a serious inquiry into the nature of the truth. Brahamvadies, mayavadies and sunavadies (Three varieties of atheists) will just wallow in self-deceiving ignorance until they come to the stage of realizing truth can never be figured out by ones own small mind and intelligence even after millions of years.

David N. Zuckerman

Now you have successfully argued and made Chuck HIllig’s point of his post with this response of yours.

4) MayesvaraDasa

So you don’t perceive Birth, Old Age, Disease and Death as problematic?
You don’t see natural disasters, prejudicial discrimination, poverty, dishonesty war, and the Covin 19 lockdown problematic?

Chuck Hillig

MayesvaraDasa:
Well, what actually makes any situation “problematic,” however, is only your BELIEF that things “SHOULD be different.”
But, in truth, how can you really KNOW that life…right here and right now…should be, somehow, OTHER than how it is?Instead, maybe it’s possible that “whatever’s happening” right now is exactly how things are SUPPOSED to be? Maybe, in fact, everything has always been “on schedule,” and that life, itself, is always unfolding just exactly as it needs to unfold (even if it, sometimes, seems to “unravel”)

Hey, who can say “why?”

Yes, certainly, things CAN seem to be made “more comfortable,” but by labeling “whatever’s arising” as being “problematic,” it suggests that you’ve judged something’spresence as being “wrong” and “bad” and, therefore, now worthy of your ego-based RESISTANCE.

Maybe, instead, it’s better to NOT see “birth, old age, disease and death” as “problematic” (i.e. “wrong” and “bad”), but, rather, as simply events that arise within the dream that will, eventually, need to be addressed, experienced and fully embraced.

Andrew Gugar
Never resolved anything just compounded ignorance and insanity.

Gerald Juskovic
Would you consider Budhism or Hinduism as a religion or a spiritual science

Sam Raven
Agreed. I think though, for many believers, religion plugs the fear generated by ontological insecurity.

Anil Bhatnagar
It solves the problem of looking good in our eyes– and even feeling proud of ourselves– without doing anything, without changing anything and without contributing anything.

John Troy
Exactly!

5) MayesvaraDasa:

Yes, there is an aspect of life which occurs regardless of how we label or evaluate it. Yes, in the end we can even agree that everything is functioning exactly the way it should be and we can refer to it as a mysterious grand illusion that needs no explanation. And Yes… we can even claim there is nothing we can do to change any of it and happily adopt the outlook of just “love what is” as Byron Katie has successfully popularized with great commercial success.

But, do we apply this line of thinking in regards to the Coronavirus? Where is it appropriate to exercise some logic and reasoning and why should we if it’s all a silly dream anyway? Should we happily give $20 to every panhandler on the street? Does a healthy response to that question lie somewhere beyond our apathy, fatalism,limited intelligence, neglector he trauma inflicted on us by how our parents acted?

There is a place for what you are saying Chuck, but could you at least consider the possibility that the Advaita path is far more rigorous then the way it is being presented here? This approach to life was ushered in by Sankaracharya who is respected as an incarnation of Lord Siva that appeared for the sole purpose of inaugurating mayavadi philosophy (advaita). Those who respect the Vedas might find it interesting that in the Padma PruanaLord Shiva states:

“The theory of Mayavadism, though given a facade of great importance and claiming itself to be derived from the Vedas, is in truth a non-Vedic theory. O goddess Parvati! It is I, who propagated this concocted theory which is the root cause of the world’s destruction.” – Lord Siva Speaking to Paravati in Padma Purana (Uttara-khanda 25.7)

World class acharyas like Madhava and Ramanuja have written extensively about how the non-dual path is more damaging then helpful in a progressive society. Yet how many of those who promote Non-dualism are even aware of the fact that these historic personalities have presented some of the most philosophical commentaries ever written on this topic? Isn’t it a bit irresponsible to take up the banner for a cause before one knows both the pros and cons about it?

What is embarrassing is that most who tout the glories of the Advaita path don’t know these things nor do they care. Their commitment to non-duality has been adopted because it fulfils a need they have.. For many it is a convenient excuse to avoid acting responsibly. For others it allows them to artificially suppress painful or difficult issues.

This is a classic case of doing the easier thing instead of the right thing because distinguishing right from wrong requires a much greater effort than what most are willing to give. This then becomes a form of infinite regression for the non-dualist because even that inquiry can be cleverly dismissed as just another unnecessarily bothersome blip in a meaningless dream!

Of the three options, 1) perpetual ignorance 2) outside help 3) all theories are illusionary. The third is the most insidious because it is impenetrable form of chronic dishonesty and a technicolor example of our cheating propensity on steroids.
Just recently a police officer in Minneapolis killed a man using excess violence and according to this illusionary philosophy it should just be “experienced” as another event that arises in the dream. Should we really relegate the front-line nurse in the Coronavirus epidemic to be nondifferent from the role of a pickpocket? They are both just actors right? Or in this case do we use some self-centered measuring stick based on what pleases my ego the most to decide who to praise and who to chastise? Should we just love the fact that some very misguided individuals hijacked planes and killed 3000 fellow citizens in NY?

The obsession for non-dual thinking is just the opposite side of the fanatical religious sentimentalis coin. Both models are very poorly thought out paradigms for life and serve a selfish need. The fanatics expect God to solve all their problems without having to change anything about themselves while the Advaitist claim there are no problems needed to be solved because everything is just a grand illusion. In both cases the opportunity to mutually investigate what offers the most promising model for a better world is just dogmatically shut down.

At least those who do surrender to the codes of behavior taught buy the various faiths recognize the limitations of their own abilities. That is a strength, not a weakness because it acknowledges that in order to have a civilized, functional society there has to be an agreed social policy that defines ethics, moral behavior and even simple things like social courtesies and etiquettes. That is what religion offers mankind. Without it there is endless speculative chaos with every individual mouthing off whatever they think is true based on their own flawed conditioning. This is why the atheists can’t even agree on their own version of the 10 commandments despite how much they have tried or how “Bright” they consider themselves to be!

Truly good people will report a crime when it is happening even at the risk of some personal inconvenience. Those who dismiss the events in our life to be just a dream are more inclined to just shut the window and go back to watching “I Love Lucy” when someone is screaming for help. Why not? Both the crime and Lucy are no more than part of the illusion!

Is there anything important in this illusion other than what makes one feel smart, generous, important, spiritual etc. What is the best way to evaluate issues like this? Is it even possible to have a coherent responsible society if everyone Is free to act independently and social anarchy is promoted in the name of an ignorantly propped up way of life referred to as non-dualism?

Is it really an effective philosophy to discard the concept of “problematic” when “whatever is arising” in the dream happens to be something like a person burglarizing a home to feed their drug habit? We are all free to believe whatever we want. But I know you well enough Chuck to know that if your daughter was raped, you would not counsel her by saying her assailant mealy had a sexual urge and there is absolutely nothing ” wrong” or “bad” about that! Why? How can you really KNOW that life…right here and right now…should be, somehow, OTHER than how it is?

By Mayesvara Dasa

Can be Contacted at mdjagdasa@gmail.com