Discussion of Female Diksha Guru with a Godbrother – 7

Letter from Basu Ghosh Das

Dear Godbrother Prabhu,

Namonamaha.  Jaya Srila Prabhupada!

Received your message:

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Letter from Godbrother

Dear Basu Ghosh Prabhu Ji,

 Why are there so many female TPs today, as well as Prime Ministers and Presidents of so many countries?

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First of all, thanks for being frank with your views.

The reason there are “so many” – and the fact is that there aren’t so many – female TPs in ISKCON is simple enough.  Our leaders  – the GBC men who are instituting the female TPs – aren’t following the example Srila Prabhupada himself set.

Srila Prabhupada did not appoint even one woman as a TP/GBC/BBT-MVT or property trustee (as given in his final will registered at Mathura during 1977).   Why?

Because Prabhupada’s outlook was that women are supposed to serve and assist their husbands.  Not take leadership roles in society.  Here, a quote from Prabhupada:

Hrdayananda: These women leaders are not doing so well. Also, in South America there was a woman leader, and she also was put in jail.

 

Prabhupada: In the history of India there is no woman leader. Throughout Mahabharata you’ll find… Mahabharata is the greater history, history of greater India. Maha means “greater,” and bharata. So “Greater Bharata.” That means this whole planet. So you won’t find woman leader.

Prabhupada’s conversation at Bombay on March 24, 1977 [end quote].

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So, what has happened, and is continuing to happen is that the ISKCON leadership – the international GBC – at least a majority of them – and of course you and others who have a similar outlook – just don’t accept what Prabhupada both said about women in leadership positions, nor do you (liberal, leftist, egalitarian, feminist) devotees accept it.

In a previous message, you complained that I am maligning you by calling you – and those who support female TPs, GBCs, etc., as “feminists”.

However, “feminist” is not a pejorative term.  It is a commonly used noun in the English language that denotes someone who supports feminism.

The word feminist is not an expletive or profanity, nor is it an offensive or insulting word.  It is used to describe – accurately – persons who believe in – as you do, “the advocacy of women’s rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.” This is the dictionary definition of feminism.

> Where are the men?

The men are everywhere, but feminists – both male and female who believe in feminism – who are now in the dominant position in the international GBC – are appointing female GBCs and TPs as a part of a campaign of affirmative action. To introduce “gender equality” into ISKCON.

You support the introduction of this ethos that is in direct contradiction to what both Shastras and Prabhupada teach about the role of women in society.

> The ladies are there because the men didn’t accept the position with all its responsibilities and headaches.

Not necessarily true: unless there is some exceptional case.

> Not only that, but the ladies work much harder like mothers do for their children.

This argument is sentimental and just your subjective opinion.  The problem is that it is neither the Vedic concept of how society should function, nor is having women adopt the duties/ occupations of men.

Here is what Prabhupada envisioned for ISKCON, as well as human society in general:

Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara kaja ki. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya’s chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and…, but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our [indistinct]. He was not fit for sannyasa, but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and…

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas. There must be regular education.

Hari-sauri: But in our community, if the…, being as we’re training up as Vaisnavas…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: …then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.

From room conversation at Mayapur on Feb. 14, 1977   [end quote].

 

 

> So,when the men become lazy and behave like children, mothers take over the job. And they do it with alacrity and integrity.

Prabhupada disagreed with this idea, as do we – the vast majority of the leadership of ISKCON India.

Prabhupada clearly taught the concept that women not be in leadership positions in society.  So your view contradicts Prabhupada’s outlook, and the outlook of vedic shastras, vedic culture, and religion.

Here is a very pertinent quote from what Prabhupada wrote in his purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 4.16.23:

“It is very appropriate to compare a powerful king like Prthu to a lion. In India, ksatriya kings are still called singh, which means “lion.” Unless rogues, thieves and other demoniac people in a state are afraid of the executive head, who rules the kingdom with a strong hand, there cannot be peace or prosperity in the state. Thus it is most regrettable when a woman becomes the executive head instead of a lionlike king. In such a situation the people are considered very unfortunate.”

The argument you are presenting here clashes with the vedic concept of the role of women as envisioned by Srila Prabhupada and as we see in Srimad Bhagavatam.

Women have separate duties from men, as we see here in the description of Bhishma’s instructions on dharma to Yudhishtir – who was directly motivated to approch Bhishma (Lord Krishna came with Yudhistir) who was lying on “the bed of arrows” on the battlefield of Kurukshetra:

दानधर्मान् राजधर्मान् मोक्षधर्मान् विभागश: ।
स्त्रीधर्मान् भगवद्धर्मान् समासव्यासयोगत: ॥ २७ ॥

dana-dharman raja-dharman moksa-dharman vibhagasah

stri-dharman bhagavad-dharman samasa-vyasa-yogatah

Translation

He then explained, by divisions, acts of charity, the pragmatic activities of a king and activities for salvation. Then he described the duties of women and devotees, both briefly and extensively.  [Srimad Bhagavatam 1.9.27]

 

 

> Yes, if men were capable the ladies would gladly assist them. But when there are no capable male volunteers, it’s better to have ladies doing the service than nobody and have ISKCON fade into Oblivion.

Prabhupada did have women engage in Deity worship in the temples in the West, due to “time and circumstance” considerations.  It is not ideal.

Despite this allowance, it is an undeniable fact that Prabhupada never appointed even one woman as an officer in his ISKCON, during his lifetime.

> BTW, daivi varnasrama means based on atma not deha. So anyone from any caste, Varna, or asrama can do any service.

Kindly support this contention from shastras.  However, you cannot, for such an idea appears nowhere in any vedic literatures.

Dharma deals with the body [deha]!  That the atma exists is the subject matter of the upanishads, sure.  But the instructions on varnashram as presented in the above quote by Prabhupada, and in vedas, and vedic literatures such as Bhagavad-gita all deal with the body – the deha – since we are “dehis” – atmas that presently, in the material world are residing in various bodies due to karmas.

It is the philosophy taught by Lord Krishna in Bhagavad-gita 3.35 that you are hereby rejecting by presenting this concocted idea:

श्रेयान्स्वधर्मो विगुणः परधर्मात्स्वनुष्ठितात् ।

स्वधर्मे निधनं श्रेयः परधर्मो भयावहः ॥ ३५ ॥

sreyan sva-dharmo vigunah para-dharmat sv-anusthitat

sva-dharme nidhanam sreyah para-dharmo bhayavahah

Translation

It is far better to discharge one’s prescribed duties, even though faultily, than another’s duties perfectly. Destruction in the course of performing one’s own duty is better than engaging in another’s duties, for to follow another’s path is dangerous.

Purport

One should therefore discharge his prescribed duties in full Krsna consciousness rather than those prescribed for others. Materially, prescribed duties are duties enjoined according to one’s psychophysical condition, under the spell of the modes of material nature. Spiritual duties are as ordered by the spiritual master for the transcendental service of Krsna. But whether material or spiritual, one should stick to his prescribed duties even up to death, rather than imitate another’s prescribed duties. Duties on the spiritual platform and duties on the material platform may be different, but the principle of following the authorized direction is always good for the performer. When one is under the spell of the modes of material nature, one should follow the prescribed rules for his particular situation and should not imitate others. For example, a brahmana, who is in the mode of goodness, is nonviolent, whereas a ksatriya, who is in the mode of passion, is allowed to be violent. As such, for a ksatriya it is better to be vanquished following the rules of violence than to imitate a brahmana who follows the principles of nonviolence. Everyone has to cleanse his heart by a gradual process, not abruptly. However, when one transcends the modes of material nature and is fully situated in Krsna consciousness, he can perform anything and everything under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. In that complete stage of Krsna consciousness, the ksatriya may act as a brahmana, or a brahmana may act as a ksatriya. In the transcendental stage, the distinctions of the material world do not apply. For example, Visvamitra was originally a ksatriya, but later on he acted as a brahmana, whereas Parasurama was a brahmana but later on he acted as a ksatriya. Being transcendentally situated, they could do so; but as long as one is on the material platform, he must perform his duties according to the modes of material nature. At the same time, he must have a full sense of Krsna consciousness.  [end purport].

Note the words: “but whether material or spiritual, one should stick to his prescribed duties even up to death, rather than imitate another’s prescribed duties.”

The jiva – atma – is moving from devata to human to asura yoni, due to it’s association with the gunas – sattva, rajas, and tamas.   Sometimes human, animal, bird, plant, aquatic, etc.

Varnashram dharma is the recommended system – by Lord Krishna Himself – for humanity, and humanity means “human body”!

It’s amazing that you even wrote this!  It does not show you in a good light, philosophically. Shows that you haven’t carefully studied and understood what Prabhupada taught about dharma – duties.  Here we are focusing on the duties of women, stridharma, that differ from the duties of men.

> Prabhupada called that, doing the needful. And HG Jayananda Prabhu was the shining example of doing the needful.

“Doing the needful” is a time and circumstance concept, and it fully depends on the person doing it being in a human body.  Not the body of a dog, hog, camel, or ass!

 

> In NYC temple, he managed the ladies sankirtan parties and they excelled under his loving example of leadership.

 

The discussion here in not whether ladies can be engaged in sankirtan.  We all know that in the West, where there is “free mixing” of men and women – and yes, that has come to urban India, (but was NOT a feature in rural India, and still there you can see women covering themselves, especially in Northern, Eastern, and Western India – even completely covering their faces in public) – Prabhupada while expressing derision and contempt for such free mixing – allowed it as “it is common in your country”.

So free mixing of men and women is NOT the ideal.  Yes, we cannot force society to be ideal.  We do not have that power.  But the separation of men and women in society is one of the ideals that Prabhupada taught.

He and vedic shastras teach that varnashram is for human society – those who are embodied in human bodies – and there are differences in “psycophysical nature” between various humans, hence society is to be divided into the four ashrams and varnas!  And, as Bhishma instructed Yudhistir in the above mentioned verse in the Bhagavatam, women have their own duties, separate from those of men.

You, being a feminist, and the majority of our Western ISKCON GBC members, also being influenced by feminism, want us to believe that varnashram is “for the atma”.  How is that?  How does that work?   Varnashram is Lord Krishna’s system meant for the organization of human society, and Prabhupada confirmed that it is meant for ISKCON as well.  As he spoke at Mayapur, as mentioned above. Here it is again:

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas. There must be regular education. [end quote].

So, no, you are simply wrong!  Misguided by maya.  Feminism and the gender equality movement are materialistic concepts that do NOT originate in vedic shastras.

If there is no differentiation to be made by us between the atmas who reside in men and women’s bodies, why is it found that there is differentiation in the Srimad Bhagavatam 6.18.33/34:

पतिरेव हि नारीणां दैवतं परमं स्मृतम् ।
मानस: सर्वभूतानां वासुदेव: श्रिय: पति: ॥ ३३ ॥
स एव देवतालिङ्गैर्नामरूपविकल्पितै: ।
इज्यते भगवान् पुम्भि: स्त्रीभिश्च पतिरूपधृक् ॥ ३४ ॥

patir eva hi narinam daivatam paramam smrtam

manasah sarva-bhutanam vasudevah sriyah patih

sa eva devata-lingair nama-rupa-vikalpitaih

ijyate bhagavan pumbhih stribhis ca pati-rupa-dhrk

Translation

A husband is the supreme demigod for a woman. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Vasudeva, the husband of the goddess of fortune, is situated in everyone’s heart and is worshiped through the various names and forms of the demigods by fruitive workers. Similarly, a husband represents the Lord as the object of worship for a woman.

Prabhupada clearly stated that a woman’s duties are not part of the four varnas, but are simply to assist their husbands in his discussion with a female reporter at Chicago on July 9, 1975:

Prabhupada: Yes. Farming and cow protection and trade, this is meant for the third-class division. And worker, fourth class. These divisions must be there. Then the society will go on very nicely. Exactly the same example, that if the different parts of the body—the brain, the arms, the belly and the legs—all are in order, the bodily function will go on very nicely. This is natural.

Woman reporter: Where do women fit into these four classes?

Prabhupada: That I already explained. Women’s position is subordinate to man. So if the man is first class, the woman is first class. If the man is second class, the woman is second class. If the man is third class, the woman is third class. In this… Because woman is meant for assisting man, so the woman becomes suitable according to the man, or husband.

Woman reporter: Would you say that women are inferior to men?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Woman reporter: Why?

Prabhupada: By physiological condition. Just like you are… Your bodily features are different from the man’s features. You cannot deny it. So according to the bodily features, the psychological condition and everything is there. How you can deny it?

Woman reporter: Do you think that I am inferior to you?

Prabhupada: It is not the question of inferior or superior. Different. Now you take one inferior or superior. That is your calculation. But the bodily features are different. That is materially. But spiritually, they are all one. Materially… Just like your bodily feature and a man’s bodily feature is different. Now, so far question of inferior, superior, that is your calculation. But we say that by nature, a woman and man is different.

Woman reporter: What does this mean as far as whether women can do the same things that men can do, or whether women can lead people?

Prabhupada: Well, women can bear children, but the man cannot. Is it possible to bear children, a man can become pregnant? Is it possible?

Woman reporter: No.

Prabhupada: Physically… Therefore there are so many things which is possible in man and which is not possible in woman, by nature. How you can say that they are of the same nature?  [end quote].

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Prabhu, my humble request is that you kindly consider that you have been misled by your affinity with what is the popular outlook in modern urban Western society, rather than having affinity for what Srila Prabhupada, our purva acharyas, and vedic shastras and the culture and tradition of the vaidikas and vaishnavas have taught and followed throught the ages regarding the role of women in society, and ISKCON is a part of that vision, not somehow exempt from it!

Hope this meets you well.

dasanudas,

Basu Ghosh Das